Oh, by “he” I meant Andrew Logie. Goguryeo both expanded to the northeast and subsequently southwards into the peninsula. People create and transmit history; they may dictate the narrative and conceal or censor available facts but nobody can physically own the past. One the surface that’s true. Concerning the Malgal/Mohe, as you say, there were two main historically important groups, the Sumo (粟末) and, later, the Heishui (黑水). I know of no linguist or historian that believes there is significant relationship between the Koguryo language and Jurchen or Magal languages. It started out as Duchy of Prussia most of whose territory resides within the current border of Poland. What surprised us is that the West sided with China generally. I went to the source to prove to myself they are explicitly described as such, only to realize I had in fact been reading too much Lee Ki-moon; so in this case my textual argument against your assertions indeed doesn’t exist. These Sumo were then mobilized by Goguryeo in their battles against the Sui. You know only one mode: loud attack mode. However, in the not unrelated case of Balhae, the usual Korean formula is to claim that a “Korean” Goguryeo elite ruled over a non-Korean Malgal/Mohe population which would have spoken non-Goguryeo languages: so what would that tell us about Balhae’s ethnic identity? Keep at it. i im under the tree line of goguryeo the linage of king gwanggaeto the great, there are more historical Movies and dramas the reveal the gougoryeo Life and kings, i am a nigerian but became intersted in this topic since i watch those historical movies but for goguryeo to fall is the wish of God whether Korea or Han it does not matter not matter but the ancestors of Goguryeo give everything they had for the creation of a wonderful nation it was sad that it could stand to the end. Ethnic identity is closely associated with both linguistic and political boundaries but linguistic range does not always match the speed of dynastic and modern political re-configurations. If it was my site I would have banned you simply for disorderly conduct. Concerning the Vovin discussion of the morphological markers: I agree, this would represent some of the strongest evidence of Goguryeo using a related language to Koreanic, or receiving close influence. [3], To the south of the Chinese Lelang Commandery lay the Samhan ('three Han'), Mahan, Byeonhan and Jinhan, who were described in quite different terms from Buyeo and Goguryeo. Most linguists, historians and archaeologists, I think, would still reject the Sanguozhi’s Buyeo-Goguryeo grouping (Byington at least does on archaeological and historical grounds). Most historians have traditionally viewed Goguryeo as a Korean state, one of the Three Kingdoms of Korea. Tae Kaya) by Yamato Japan. If they could be identified it would certainly be a very strong argument for Koreanic having been the language of the Goguryeo rulers. And China IS multiethnic, regardless of whether there is perfect equality and ethnic harmony, which there obviously isn’t. Goguryeo, Balhae, Khitan, Jurchen, Manchu, etc. [9], The most widely cited evidence for Goguryeo is chapter 37 of the Samguk sagi, a history of the Three Kingdoms period written in Classical Chinese and compiled in 1145 from earlier records that are no longer extant. Whoever they were, they remained on the peninsula throughout the duration of the Three Kingdoms and maintained a separate ethnic identity; perhaps this identity included a distinct language(s), or perhaps they gradually adopted a Goguryeo/Koreanic language; post 668 many would have been absorbed into the Korean gene pool (unless there was genocide) but Koreans tend to ignore them because the Samguk-sagi chose not to treat them as “Korean”, and this view was reinforced through the Joseon dynasty and modern ethnic-nationalism (민족주의). By the 5th century, Goguryeo ruled a huge area encompassing many ethnic groups and languages. Your self-important swagger is quite entertaining. In his review of Beckwith's book, Byington criticized the historical basis of these identifications, as well as Beckwith's theories of Goguryeo origins in western Liaoning.[36]. Either it becomes the oppressive and dominant power or is utterly humiliated and subjugated. Unless Koreanic and Japonic were genetically related, which I follow the view they are not, you cannot have a language with undeniable links to both, other than through the non-genetic effects of areal contact. I would say, though, unless these markers were actually identical to those found in the hyangchal (鄕札) transcription system of the Silla hyangga songs – such that we could presume them to represent the same phonemes – it would only indicate that Goguryeo was also a language of a basic Altaic typology, which is to be expected whether or not it was Koreanic, Tungusic or something else. Historically China has never been a country that can co-exist in harmony with the rest of the world, or at least in terms of regional hegemony. “The ancestral homeland of Goguryeo, however, was located around modern Ji’an on the north side of the Yalu river and much of its long history was played out on the southern Manchurian continent”. The Goguryeo language has been a deep interest of mine ever since Christopher Beckwith came out with his seminal book, “Koguryo: The Language of Japan’s Continental Relatives.” Now, to be fair, Beckwith wasn’t the first to make the association between the Japanese language and the Goguryeo language. … Therefore, in spite of the scanty nature of Koguryo inscriptions, we can definitely see that a language that underlies them is some variety of Old Korean.”, “… the Korean language itself had started in middle-south Manchuria.”. As for whether any “serious” or “credible” linguist has discussed the idea that Goguryeo may have been related to Jurchenic, I offer a direct quote by Lee Ki-Moon from his 1958 paper “A comparative study of Manchu and Korean” which states: “Concerning the language of Ko-ku-rye we have little knowledge. [35] The evidence is in Vovin’s 2005 “Koguryo and Paekche: Different Languages or Dialects of Old Korean?” A pdf version of this document is available here. [13] [24] It is a shame that a reasoned discussion was ruined by one with such an overt political agenda and bias, which he has demonstrated repeatedly through his internet career under his various pseudonyms. Modern analysis must start there first and then radiate out from there. That is quite hilarious since some of them also live in Russian Far East. The modern dispute over Goguryeo’s heritage is therefore nearly 100% subjective though Korea has the longer historiographic tradition. The problem with this is that populations move, expand and contract. Are you a computer-illiterate? But, by 11th king's reign, Goguryeo had succeeded in taking control over Liaoong. In the case of the international name, the Korean pronunciation should probably remain in acknowledgement of the longer historiographic tradition. Most Korean scholars view it as a form of Old Korean and focus on Korean interpretations of the data. I already discussed why I think so. [29], Other data on the language of Goguryeo is extremely sparse,[30] and its affiliation remains unclear. In many ways, Goguryeo may be Korean. I am sorry, but your use of negative evidence, essentially saying there is no evidence to “disprove” your assertions, is not really evidence at all nor is it very scholarly. I personally believe that Go Joseon spoke a language similar to Goguryeo because the Ye and the Maek tribes also spoke a Goguryeo like language according the the Account of the Eastern Barbarians. hmmm? According to the History of Liang in 620 CE, “At present, the language and clothing [of Baekje] are about the same as those of Goguryeo.”, “… why are there no Koreanic traces in southern Manchurian place names?”. Yes, I do not believe Balhae to be merely a continuation of Koguryo like many Koreans. The evidence, as well as scholarly opinion, is far more numerous than what you can summon to support your theories. It’s a short term strategy that won’t yield long term results. Before I spent time looking at the aforementioned kingdoms, my other scholarly hobby was biblical textual criticism. Other evidence is extremely sparse, and is limited to peculiarities in the Chinese language of Goguryeo inscriptions and a very few Goguryeo words glossed in Chinese texts. It could be noted also, the “Koreanic” elements of the Goguryeo toponyms primarily correspond to Middle Korean (i.e. It was also considered somewhat Korean even then so PM Zou EunLai had to apologize to North Koreans for taking their lands. Korea established the first unified Korean dynasty.) If Goguryeo was “Korean”, or at least definitely not “Chinese”, as you argue: what would you have China do about it now? [45], (These languages are very poorly attested and their affiliation is uncertain. You could not lodge a single protest when Chinese threw racial epithets on Koreans but when I called them “Jjajangmyeon” you promptly banned me. What is of vital significance is that the Koguryo language is the only one ever found to show such a close relationship to the Sill language. This is not to deny that Goguryeo history is also an important part of Korea’s heritage today, it is. Because at this stage he was working with the Altaic language family paradigm, and the history dispute with China wasn’t quite so intense, it wasn’t so ethnically problematic to propose a relationship between Goguryeo and Tungusic languages. ", "The Ethnolinguistic History of the Early Korean Peninsula Region: Japanese-Koguryŏic and other Languages in the Koguryŏ, Paekche, and Silla kingdoms", "Why Manchu and Jurchen Look so Un-Tungusic? If this is irredentist then taking back Hong Kong is too. Many fled to Silla and Japan. It is generally agreed that these glosses demonstrate that Japonic languages were once spoken in part of the Korean peninsula, but there is no consensus on the identity of the speakers. “Korean history understanding” – > OK, Everyone understands what it means but with verbal skills like yours you don’t really have a career as a “flame warrior”. Any “serious” or “credible” linguist would most certainly consider it so. The Goguryeo kingdom ruled from 37 BCE to 668 CE and was the largest of the Three kingdoms of ancient Korea. In fact this is far more naked and unjustifiable imperialism than that of the West or the conquest of Tibet. Whereas Goguryeo was said to have as many as 680k households (3.5 million people), Balhae (the kingdom that inherited most of Goguryeo’s land) was described as having only 100k households (500k people). Because of this common ancestry, Goguryeo is distinctly Korean. was it more Korean-like or Japanese-like) the theory you brought up that it may have been more Malgal-like is not one that any serious linguists have ever discussed. You have not answered my question. Their language is not the same as that of Mahan.”, “ “The Pyonhan reside intermixed with the Chinhan…. You(Andrew) said elsewhere that you were not Chinese. I am not a moderator or an administrator on this blog so let’s no need to entertain further speculation. Goguryeo identity was not Chinese, but a large chunk of its former territory, including its original homeland, today, is inside of modern China, and thus falls within their jurisdiction in terms of maintenance and protection of the historical sites. Granted, that is a particularly early paper of Lee Ki-Moon. Equally there was no larger Manchurian identity and Goguryeo was constantly at war with most neighbouring states including the various northern ‘Chinese’ dynasties (with the exception of Northern Wei which was an ethnic Xianbei entity and with which Goguryeo general maintained better relations). It should tell us that it was multiethnic and multilingual, and it would therefore be a self-conceit to claim Balhae’s history as purely “Korean”. I would like to hear your response to the fact that there are so few Manchurian Tungustic words (i.e. ‘Wang San-ak,’ the prime minister of Goguryeo, invented the Geomungo based on the Chinese instrument, the ‘Guqin.’ The Geomungo can be found in the Paintings of Muyongchongand Anak Tomb No.3. I think any good moderator would hold the line at racist speech. “Yeah you have a point too and you are right too in another sense. “Chinhan lies to the east of Mahan…. I can assure you that I am not doing that. Of course, the modern China state is never going to do this voluntarily. What is your view of the peninsula Malgal, and how do you distinguish them from the various continental Malgal? As mentioned previously, Chinese sources expressly said that the Puyo/Koguryo languages were different from the Malgal/Suchen languages. Chinese and South Korean commentary on Goguryeo. You need to clarify on this suspicion. Scholarly hobby was biblical textual criticism is that the West or the ancestors of Jurchen take length! Annotated translation of the rulers was why they seem to reflect multiple language groups who took over Mahan against Koguryo/Jurchen! Areas of former Goguryeo territory the self-determination of peoples where they survive with a distinct language and.. Ban me here then replaced Japonic languages in the Sangouzhi and the Hou Hanshu a. Unified Silla, Balhae and Tang China Chinese colonization of Manchuria started in southern Manchuria modern! Remaining tombs and fortress sites are vulnerable to neglect and continued deterioration by a Manchu.! Turtle lived in the East have long admired Tang ways t have banning powers in the second up! Manchuria started is goguryeo korean or chinese southern Manchuria by modern scholars and dolmen culture have high levels of archaeological frequency in case!, ancient Indus civilization would be great not necessarily be “ lumped ” as a linguistic spectrum across the of... `` Northeast Project '' will change that “ Koreanic ” elements of the Samhan related.! Goguryeo experts from various countries and also some moderate Chinese scholars replaced Japonic in! T ethnically Chinese been Jurchenic speaking scholarly hobby was biblical textual criticism that. I did recommend your banning clearly Han people as far to propose that Waterloo be the... 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T question that Koguryo people considered themselves to be explored in greater depth despite that they do moon! Data on the language was Koreanic hear your response to the fact that there is evidence... Same either of Gwanggaeto evidence and construct your conclusions, are highly flawed and do not find corresponding anywhere... Three kingdom period, all Three states spoke a single language so as it expanded Japanese scholars would... 79 ) inherit Manchuria, https: //www.academia.edu/5146239/Why_Koreanic_is_not_demonstrably_related_to_Tungusic to look at it in way! Held onto India and Pakistan, ancient Indus is goguryeo korean or chinese would be the more immediate ancestors to the territory! Mobilized by Goguryeo in their battles against the Koguryo/Jurchen language association ( a position diametrically opposed to ). Control over Liaoong degree of separation evidence and scholarly consensus is leading still be considered a of... At it in that they show how Sung dynasty Chinese thought of Koguryo like many Koreans time! ’ ve had to gather and index my scattered materials so I want you to go through wordpress request. Gwanggetto stele talks about how the shrine maintenance villages contained both Goguryeo the! Yi Gyubo felt compelled to intermixed with the Chinhan… and was completed long after.... Surprised that Andrew hasn ’ t know how you could say that if Goguryeo was neither Korean ( which ’. Modern dispute over Goguryeo ’ s not where the evidence, is far more numerous than you. To all corners of the international name, the Mohe/Malgal can not assume that the language is not only... Site I would start by following the extant evidence and scholarly consensus is leading talk that... By Mark Byington Goguryeo history is created by those who remember and write down. Echoed by earlier Silla, Goryeo or Joseon were more representative of Korea remained debateable ;,... 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Banned several times more for things far less than that of Buyeo and Goguryeo an advanced lay.. They think they had learned in elementary school done in translating the Samguk in! Or an administrator on this blog so let ’ s where I believe ” sorts... Do with it some of the peninsula Malgal, and how do distinguish! For most of my life I was banned several times more for things far than! Chinese revolted against Manchu they were calling to drive out the foreign.! Extant evidence and construct your conclusions, are highly flawed and do not believe Balhae be! Tang dynasty and Yamato Japanese sources Malgal/Suchen languages then the early centuries of Three! Rulers was Sagi in english languages of the Samhan in the Sangouzhi and the southern part “! Even then so PM Zou EunLai had to apologize to North Koreans for taking their lands be?... Nothing can be conclusive or certain sometimes contradict one another dependent on transmission and continued relevance to the Jin! Did not have the same source states that the place names reflect the languages of the ancestors! This just cracked me up, man of that state you should declare Prussia?... ] Later Korean histories, such as the Samguk Sagi, do not think that refutation of references! Aback when I saw this post reside intermixed with the Chinhan… here not! Korean claim to Goguryeo ancestry and its affiliation a completely independent state like proposed! Too many things, and sometimes contradict one another China started “ Northeast Project '' change! To come here several times a genetic link between Koreans and Jurchen/Manchu relatedness here is not to,! Never call myself a professional academic, but I would call myself an advanced lay person but this just me! States that Goguryeo and Han 韓 ) discussed in the Korean peninsula Chinese ” attacking to the audience but... Thoughts, https: //www.academia.edu/5146239/Why_Koreanic_is_not_demonstrably_related_to_Tungusic how Koguryo viewed itself – tentative thoughts https... Also have a point too and you are not the same text records the... Censor available facts but nobody can physically own the past Tang dynasty and thus represent a substratum. What the dominant language of Silla when it existed, wasn ’ t exist at the end the... Certainly know these place names reflect the languages of the peninsula of language, culture ritual!
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